These interviews and dialogues with babaji help to provide a very direct and uncomplicated insight into the practice and everyday application of: Truth, Simplicity, Love and Service. They allow the reader a very clear blueprint by which to live.
Interview with Babaji, Summer 1978
By Dio Urmilla Neff
(printed in the Yoga Journal, 1980)
BABAJI, I whispered intently, as though daring Him to appear. I glanced around the lobby of my parents condominium. It was 1966, and I was curled in a chair, glued to Paramahansa Yogananda's classic, Autobiography of a Yogi. I was fascinated by the phenomena it so matter-of-factly presented. I'd just come to a quote by the renowned master Lahiri Mahasaya: Whenever anyone utters with reverence the name of Babaji, that devotee attracts an instant spiritual blessing, I intoned again, trying to feel reverent. Nothing seemed to have happened in the lobby; I saw no lights, heard no ethereal voices. How silly, I thought. What did I expect? I would have been astounded to learn, however, that Babaji had heard me, and twelve years later would tell me so! Babaji was Yogananda's guru's guru's guru, who lived in the Himalayas and reportedly teleported from peak to peak with his small band of devotees.
Yogananda described him as the originator of Kriya Yoga, a system of meditation techniques. Supposedly hundreds of years old, Babaji was said not to be a human at all, but an avatar, a divine being, descended into the flesh to help humanity. Autobiography of a Yogi described Babaji as stern and formidable: he supposedly thrust a flaming brand into a devotee's shoulder, then healed the burn immediately with his hand, explaining to his alarmed followers that the man would have otherwise died by fire as his karma dictated. I read of another time where it was said Babaji ordered an aspiring disciple to jump off a cliff to prove his devotion. The man jumped. Babaji reportedly brought him back to life and accepted him as his devotee.
Right now Babaji is living in His ashram in the remote village of Herakhan, by the Gautam Ganga River in the Kumaon Hills of Uttar Pradesh. [The Gautam Ganga is a river holy to Shiva, flowing past one of several mountains named Kailash, said to be the original Mt. Kailash where the very first fire ceremony was performed.] Please note that the Babaji spoken of in this article no longer resides in Herakhan in the form described in this piece, but passed out of that form on Valentine's Day, 1984. Although He has been there since 1970, relatively few Westerners have visited Him.
It is as though only those who happened to discover His whereabouts could go, and the rest of us would assume He was still unapproachable, living on some uncharted Himalayan peak. My husband and I first learned of Babaji's location from a young woman in San Francisco who'd spent eight months with Him. We were filled with a longing to see Him, and with the conviction He was indeed the Babaji of legend. Although we didn't at first know how we could finance such a trip, some family money that had been tied up in legal squabbles was suddenly released to us. Three months later we were in India.
At Babaji's hilltop ashram in Herakhan we found a delightful compound of white and peach-colored buildings, banana groves and flower gardens on terraced levels overlooking the clear streams of the Gautam Ganga. The tiny octagonal temple, with its narrow red, white and green dome, nestled among the banana leaves; a faded red flag hung from its steeple. All was clean, well-swept and peaceful. On either side of the ashram were terraced fields of corn and rice, dry green-brown hills, several stone farmhouses. To the right was the village of Herakhan, with its tumbling stream and miniature bridge. Directly across the wide riverbed was a cave and the towering Mt. Kailash, traditionally sacred to the Hindu god Shiva. In the distance, more hills shouldered the river's white, stony bed. A few villagers worked in the hot fields; others herded black-skinned water buffalo along the narrow trails.
The afternoon we arrived, I was hurrying down the ashram steps to retrieve my bags when I almost bumped into a group of Indians led by a tall, plump person in a violet silk shirt and dhoti. [A dhoti is a traditional Indian garment for men consisting of a length of fabric wrapped to form a kind of trousers.] The leader had a youthful, round golden face and black, shoulder-length hair, combed back and oiled, Indian style. I was momentarily confused -- I couldn't identify the person as a man or woman; he or she seemed to combine the best of both. The face was so appealing . . . so splendid. Oh! I cried, realizing who it was.
Babaji asked me my name, then passed by and walked quickly into the garden, where his followers had gathered for afternoon singing. I sat at the back of the garden, staring in wonder at the figure in violet silk. He looked almost like an American Indian, with his high, domed forehead and deep-set, dark eyes. His nostrils flared slightly; His lips were beautifully carved. His cheeks were full and rosy and He glowed with health. There was something compelling, wonderful, about his face. He was the most beautiful being I'd ever seen. Babaji sat on a low wall at the end of the garden, receiving the devotees who lined up to greet Him.
Women in saris [traditional garment of Indian women consisting of a length of cloth wrapped over a petticoat and jacket] knelt down and touched their foreheads to his feet, then rose, and beaming, said a few words to Him. Men in dhotis and men in business suits approached Him, many laying fully prostrate on the ground in pranam, the Indian gesture of respect to one's guru. The people who'd arrived that afternoon brought Him presents, and Babaji unwrapped shirts and dhotis, watercolor sets and drawing paper, packages of fruits and Indian delicacies. Some devotees brought fragrant oils to massage into his feet, or incense to burn nearby.
They obviously all adored Him. [It is traditional in India to bring gifts to the guru or saint or to the local deity in the temple. These gifts, which can be flowers, sweets or fruit, incense or sweet perfumed oils or other items, such as clothing or jewelry, even money, are often distributed by the guru to others, sometimes after a few days, sometimes immediately. This is known as prasad, blessed by the guru. The food which is served in the ashram, also referred to as prasad, is blessed by offering it to the guru or by a priest, who offers it to the local deity before it is distributed.]
The next day began the ashram routine that would be daily life for the next ten weeks. We'd rise at four to take a quick bath in the crystal streams of the Gautam Ganga below the ashram, and assemble in the tiny cement kirtan hall [Hindu temple; kirtan is a religious service consisting of singing for devotional prayers and songs.] Babaji would arrive to receive us, and we would line up to greet Him or stand by His raised seat and talk with Him. Afterwards we'd go to our rooms, sit with Babaji in the garden, work in the kitchen or carry buckets of water up from the river. [At this time there was no electricity and very few modern ammenities in Herakhan.]
At noon we'd assemble in the courtyard for lunch and afterwards sleep in our rooms. We'd take our second bath in mid-afternoon and then sit in the garden for afternoon singing and visiting with Babaji. Once it was dark we would again meet in the kirtan hall and sing. Sometimes at night Babaji would have one of us make a speech; sometimes He'd clown and play with a devotee, or pull someone into his lap and hug and rock them like a mother. And often He would simply sit, not speaking, and we'd sing continuously until it was time for bed.
According to His Indian devotees, Babaji is available in a physical body for a period of time, then He vanishes and appears to His followers only in visions. When He manifests physically again, He has a new body, they say, and a different appearance. They say He does not incarnate, but materializes; He is not born -- but appears full-grown. Yogananda's description of Babaji in his book (Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramhansa Yogananda, Self-Realization Fellowship, 1971, LA) apparently refers to a time in the mid-1800s. Another book, by Baba Hari Dass, covers Babaji's life between 1890 and 1920 in the Kurmachala region of India, adjacent to Nepal (Hariakhan Baba: Known, Unknown by Baba Hari Dass, Sri Rama Foundation, 1975, Davis, CA).
Babaji was most often called Herakhan Baba then, because of His long association with the village. Photographs show Herakhan Baba to be tall, with a relatively light complexion, short dark hair, and noble features. It was said He didn't sleep at all, had no hunger or thirst, and was unusually strong. He emanated a sweet, musk-like scent. Herakhan Baba reportedly performed miraculous acts in front of large groups of people. He was said to heal the sick, raise the dead, appear in two places at once, sit in sacred fires without a scorch. Eventually He had thousands of followers in various parts of the Kurmachala region, and wherever He went, crowds of people gathered to receive His blessing. In 1922 (or 1920 by another source) He walked into the water at the confluence of the Gori and Kali Rivers in front of a group of devotees and was not seen again.
One morning a few days after I arrived, I was returning to the ashram after washing my saris in the river. Babaji called me over to Him as I approached the ashram steps. He was sitting with a few people in a tree-shaded garden near the riverbed and reached out his golden hand to help me up beside Him on the low rock wall. He related the simple message He gives to all his devotees. "Live a life of truth, simplicity and love", He said, "and mentally repeat the mantra Om Namah Shivaya continuously". Soon afterwards I talked about the mantra with a young photographer from Gwalior, a long-time devotee of Babaji.
The photographer told me of the time he'd accompanied Babaji to the province of Bihar, where Sri Yukteswar, Yogananda's guru, had taught Kriya Yoga to thousands of people. Most of the devotees they met still practiced Kriya, and they knew who Babaji was -- the originator of the technique. "Teach us more Kriyas," they demanded, crowding around Babaji. They would hear of nothing else. So Babaji directed the people to sit in several rows, and told the photographer to go up to each one and instruct them in the correct Kriya technique for this age. I asked him what he'd done."I just whispered, Om Namah Shivaya," He said.
The story of how Babaji appeared in his current form really begins in the 1920's when a five-year-old boy in Bihar had a vision. A splendid glowing young man briefly appeared before him and gave him some prasad, blessed food. The boy was filled with devotion for the youth, and until he was a grown man he wandered on foot all over India, Nepal and Tibet, searching for his shining vision. Finally he spotted a photograph of the legendary Herakhan Baba on a Kurmachala families altar and thus came to know the guru he'd been seeking.
In 1949, in an ashram dedicated to Herakhan Baba, the devotee locked himself in a room and vowed he wouldn't eat or move from his yoga position until his beloved vision again appeared to him. And Babaji did appear, so the story goes, and rewarded the man's devotion by making him his harbinger. The newly christened guru was called Mahendra Baba. He established ashrams for Babaji throughout all of India and drew together the remaining devotees of Herakhan Baba in Kurmachala, revealing that their beloved Herakhandi [holy resident of Herakhan] and the historical Babaji were one and the same -- and that He would appear again.
As I became accustomed to ashram life, learning to find the riverbed bathroom in four a.m. darkness and mastering the art of bathing fully clothed, I turned to what seemed the major occupation of the ashram -- watching Babaji. His activities seemed to consist, as far as I could tell, of a special pre-dawn fire ritual, attending the morning and evening singing sessions, meeting with devotees in His room, and periodically supervising Vedic rituals. Sometimes He would sing in the garden and have a leg massage, paint with watercolors or play chess with a group of Westerners. Other times He would vigorously direct devotees in a project: planting a tree, clearing an overgrown trail, or carrying riverbed rocks to a building site.
He would often appear at lunch-time, briskly moving among the sitting diners, asking a question here and there . . . how did they like the rice, were they comfortable, etc. His energy seemed inexhaustible. One might well be puzzled by Babaji's rather simple daily routine. He didn't appear to perform spectacular miracles like Herakhan Baba or seem forbidding and strict as in Yogananda's description. How do we know He's the one? I'm no help at all on this issue, for I felt I knew Him to be the historic Babaji the moment I heard of Him. My husband once playfully asked Babaji if He was the man in a photo of Herakhan Baba. "Yes," Babaji said, smiling, and autographed the picture. Mahendra Baba had predicted Babaji would be called Bhole Baba, Simple Father, because He would not perform obvious miracles. And so He doesn't -- at least, most of the time. I learned of the occasion when the ashram was suddenly visited by a busload of one hundred devotees from the nearby town of Haldwani.
It was noontime, and the guests had filled the courtyard, the steps, and even the paths in the garden, waiting in the hot sun for lunch. The Indian cook was very concerned, for she had only prepared enough food for twenty people and knew she couldn't possibly feed them all. "Serve the food," Babaji ordered, over her protest. So the serving staff waded into the throng of sitting villagers and began ladling rice and vegetables onto their banana-leaf plates.
They ladled their way though the packed courtyard, down the steps and into the garden. They filled the plate of the last guest and went back to the courtyard to serve seconds. The cook realized Babaji had intervened somehow, but she couldn't prove it. Babaji, characteristically, pretended ignorance. My friend from San Francisco told me another loaves-and-fishes story from the time she'd served as ashram cook. And I heard many stories like these: Babaji bi-locating to heal a farmer's wife in a distant village; Babaji speaking fluent English or German when alone with certain devotees; Babaji making himself suddenly lighter when an ardent devotee would insist on carrying him across the river.
The closest I got to witnessing "miracles" was when Babaji appeared to read my mind -- an act considered very ordinary by ashram standards. I was told that I could petition him mentally, and he would sooner or later answer my request. And I found, to my amazement, that I only had to request some understanding of a concept or some insight into a problem, and the answer would come a few days later in some subtle way, by a flash of understanding or by someone else suddenly telling me the answer. This was often followed by some small physical manifestation as well.
I would know an answer or get a small realization, and suddenly I'd get a mango from Babaji. It seemed that every time I was on the right track mentally, I got an instant confirmation from him: a quick look, a raised-palm blessing, a gift of prasad. The more I saw of Babaji, the more wondrous he seemed. When he'd walk into the kitchen compound the place would suddenly come alive. The saried ladies would jump up from cleaning the rice and greet him. The youthful cook would emerge from his wooden hut, beaming, his bubbling vegetables temporarily forgotten. The kitchen workers would crowd Babaji, their faces lit with the radiant "He's here" look I came to know so well.
In June of 1970, so the story goes, a Herakhan farmer named Chandramani dreamed he should cross the Gautam Ganga and enter a cave at the foot of Mt. Kailash. He did, and once inside, found a beautiful youth sitting in a lotus pose [a yogic pose used in meditation with both legs crossed]. The youth was tall and slender, with dark, shoulder-length hair and a fair complexion. Chandramani went home and returned with some milk for the young man.
The farmer continued to bring milk each day and soon moved into the cave to better serve the youth, to whom he'd become very devoted. Shortly thereafter they climbed Mt. Kailash. On this holy mountain the youth sat in a perfectly still yogic posture for 45 days, neither eating nor drinking nor ever opening his eyes. Later, he and Chandramani crossed the river to the small octagonal temple built by Herakhan Baba decades before. They lived in a nearby hut, and one by one the awestruck villagers came to pay their respects to this remarkable young man, believing him to be their own Herakhan Baba,returned at last.
About a year after he appeared in the cave, the young guru began to travel to various villages and cities in Northern India. In this way many more people became aware of him, and soon there was a steady stream of city people hiking to the remote temple in the Kumaon Hills. An Indian friend from Bombay told me how she first met Babaji in those early days, and how he revealed himself to her. My friend is a rather westernized, no-nonsense sort of person who had first read Autobiography of a Yogi in 1959. She felt an intense yearning to find Babaji, and so set out for the Himalayas to find him. She didn't find him then, and so tried again in 1965 -- still without success. One evening in 1971, she was sitting with her father by their family altar which was covered with pictures of deities and saints.
A relative came to the door and insisted on bringing a young guru in to meet the family. My friend had given up on Babaji and on gurus in general by then, and didn't want to meet another one. But her father, ever hospitable, agreed to see him. The relative came in with a strikingly beautiful youth who walked straight over to the altar and sat down. Looking intensely at my friend, and not speaking, he pointed to a picture on the altar that, most oddly, she had not seen there a moment before -- the small line drawing of Babaji from Autobiography of a Yogi. Then he pointed to himself. Still silent, he pointed to the picture and to himself twice more.
Moved to tears, my friend fell at his feet. She'd found Babaji at last. This woman told me, as did other Indian devotees, what Babaji was like in the early years at Herakhan. In 1971 and 1972, they said, he would sit for hours in a lotus pose with his eyes closed, apparently in a deep meditative state. Even when not in meditation he hardly spoke, they said, and then only in monosyllables. His eyes seemed to radiate a light, and often his gaze was so bright and penetrating people couldn't look at him. Photographs of Babaji at this time show a slender, beautifully-featured youth of about twenty, with dark, arresting eyes and a mass of tangled hair. He looked in some photos like a Sioux warrior, and in others like a madonna.
The first storm of the pre-monsoon season broke, swelling the lazy riverbed stream into a muddy torrent. The air became cool and soft, and everything -- the peach-colored buildings, the cement pathways, the profusion of banana leaves -- was wet and glistening. You couldn't get much of an understanding of Babaji from watching him, I thought. I'd sit in the back of the dripping kirtan hall, trying to piece together what I knew of the legendary Babaji and this enigmatic guru before me. He was different with each person and, sometimes, different from moment to moment. He'd be delightfully childlike, an affectionate playmate, then suddenly go blank, as if he'd just been called away and left his body behind. He'd be serious, then stern, then loving, then ridiculous.
With a beautiful Punjabi mother and her children he was consistently attentive, hospitable, cuddly. With an elderly village woman, he was always teasing, laughing and yelling the equivalent of "Boo!" in Hindi. To others he appeared indifferent or even angry. To many devotees he was all of these in turn. I didn't understand this kaleidoscopic behavior. I began to seek out Babaji's long-time devotees for an explanation. "I've seen him operate for six years," a London-based writer told me one morning in her cozy room, "and he always serves us and always from infinite love and compassion for us, regardless of what appears on the surface." She was a tall, graceful, very poised young woman who was apparently a favorite of Babaji's.
He praised her often and kept her near him every day. She'd gone through all kinds of misery in the beginning, she said. After her first visit, she came down with a strange, undiagnosed malady and lay in bed with a fever for six months. She felt the illness -- and its miraculous cure -- were all Babaji's doing. At a later visit, he threw her out of the ashram, bags and all, in a furious monsoon downpour. On subsequent visits he would alternately ignore her, treat her kindly, appear to forget her. I asked about his current behavior. "Just the other side of the coin, I'm afraid," she said, laughing. "I'm under tremendous pressure, she explained, "not to let my ego get caught up in all this attention."
She believes Babaji first works on people psychologically, purging them of their various hang-ups, and then uplifts them spiritually in the traditional role of a guru to his devotees. She felt all the attention was just another test he was putting her through.
I spoke with a lovely middle-aged Delhi woman one afternoon while we sat in the kirtan hall. The wife of an affluent Delhi businessman, she had been with Babaji since his early days. "Babaji is here to serve, and believe me, he does! He may pretend to ignore us, but behind it is an all-encompassing love." She told me that over the years Babaji had put her through some trying times, but she always gained some essential realization from it, a deeper understanding of her spiritual purpose. She became psychologically much stronger, she said, and was filled with gratitude to Babaji. "I'll never forget what he told me once," she whispered. "He said, 'I only came here to give. If you come to doubt, I'll give you reason to doubt,' he once told my San Francisco friend, who at first was quite suspicious of him. 'If you come suspicious, I'll give you every reason to be suspicious. But if you come seeking love, I'll show you more love than you've every known.'"
Soon the monsoon season was upon us in earnest. Almost every day it rained fiercely for hours, transforming the sparse hillsides into lush, gleaming jungle and our rooms into water-soaked caves. We huddled by candles for light, our lines of limp clothing criss-crossing overhead. The smell of damp cotton hung everywhere. "Don't be fooled by the outward drama," my London friend told me another time, as we sipped hot tea in her room. "He is basically impartial and unbiased. No matter what one does, one cannot . . .influence him. He is," she searched for the word, "unbribable." "And remember, she added, "Babaji's messages are always very subtle. He communicates in . . . symbolic language. He gives hints, clues."
I told her of an incident a few days earlier when Babaji had helped me wrench open the moisture-swollen doors to my room. "I am your helper," he'd said in English. "That's it, exactly," she said. "He is helping you; he's opening doors for you." And so I gathered anecdotes and opinions from Babaji's Indian and Western devotees. I heard plenty of pet theories about his sometimes incomprehensible behavior. He would puff up egotists, they said, praising them lavishly, making them his "favorites." When they were enormously proud, he'd appear to demolish them, by throwing them out of the ashram or staging some particularly humiliating experience for them.
Insecure people Babaji would push even lower, usually by ignoring them. And with indecisive people, he would answer their pleas for advice different ways at different times, confusing them hopelessly. An explanation offered for this phenomena was that when someone's psychological hang-ups (or tapes, sanskaras, ignorance, stresses or karmas, as they're variously called) come up in the presence of a spiritual master, they're dissolved by his purifying influence. It seemed that Babaji stimulated these to come up, so they could be dissolved. I was told that the egotists eventually lost their arrogance but retained their confidence, the timid realized the inner strength they had all along, and the undecided learned to make decisions.
This analysis is purely theoretical, of course. No one knew what he was really doing. Many of us called these theoretical maneuverings "Herakhan Theater." My own experience with Babaji was a case in point. One of the main reasons I'd gone to see him was for help in a tremendous fork-in-the-road decision -- I didn't know whether to stay married or leave my husband. Babaji bounced me back and forth like a ping-pong ball, from one side to the other of my dilemma.
On some days he told me to stay married and on others to leave, plunging me further into my sink of indecision and self-pity. He usually ignored me outwardly, answer all my questions inwardly, gave me numerous hints that he was really helping me, honored me with a request to write about him, and couldn't seem to remember my name. When I returned to California, I, too, fell mysteriously ill, and just as mysteriously recovered. And in the course of the next six months, my life altered dramatically for the better. I also found myself much happier, and able, finally, to make my own decisions. Had Babaji done something to me? It is all speculation, of course. "Of the thousands of people that will come to Herakhan," Babaji once told another American friend of mine, "only a handful will ever know me."
As active as Babaji was, he rarely made a speech, or held forth in spiritual discourse. He simply instructed us to live lives of truth, simplicity and love and repeat "Om Namah Shivaya." (Om Namah Shivaya is pronounced "Om" [rhymes with "home"], Nah-mah-hah [the "a" in father], She-vai ["vaya rhymes with "bye"]. (Swami Muktananda, a renowned siddhi yogi beloved by many Americans, also teaches this mantra, pronouncing it "Om Namah Shivaya.") I knew something about nam jap, the repetition of a mantra, from my studies of the Vedanta philosophy years before. It is believed that Sanskrit terms are of the same vibration, though on a different frequency, of the objects they name. So the Sanskrit name for "light," for example, is made of the same stuff, vibration-wise, as actual physical light, but on a different octave, so to speak.
It is further believed that if one repeats the name of God in Sanskrit, one will then very precisely attract His attention, and thus evoke or create that divinity within one's own consciousness. Evoking God's presence so immediately, it is believed, is one way to enlightenment. I had heard "Om" described in books as the underlying sound of creation. To me, "Namaha" translated as "I bow down to Thee" and "Shivaya" as the Hindu god Shiva, or that aspect of God that destroys our neuroses, our ignorance. I also learned that "Shiva" in Sanskrit means, "one who gives happiness," and thus can refer to all gods or God in general. The mantra invoked God no matter what one's religion, I was told. It therefore meant to me, "Om, I surrender to you, God, or Om, rid me of this ignorance, God!"
Q: What is your message to Americans?
(He again called Shastriji over, who said: "It is a 'mahamantra,' great mantra, a shortened and more powerful version of the mantra central to all four Vedas. It is called a beej mantra, a 'seed' mantra. The smaller and more concentrated an object, the more powerful it is. A seed contains within it all necessary power to create a mighty forest tree, and so, by comparison, it is much more powerful than the tree. So it is with 'Om Namaha Shivai' it is the beej, seed, of the longer version, and thus is a very, very potent mantra."
And there they were, scattered across his heels and the balls of his feet: a tiny bull, a cobra, the Shiva trident, an "Om" in Brahmic script, the sign of Leo, an Aries ram. My friend from Bombay told me how she and other women had often seen light radiating from Babaji's forehead, and sometimes the light would form various Shiva-symbols: an open, vertical eye; the "Om" in Brahmic script; Shiva's three-pronged trident.
That night I mentally asked Babaji to clear up the issue -- just who was this Shiva anyway? The next day a young Englishman stopped by the ashram library where I was cleaning the books. He told me the story of the time he and a group of devotees had gone to Delhi, where Babaji had been asked to perform a purifying fire ceremony by the temple prophets of the Book of Bhrighu. This book, he said, was one of the wonders of India, a series of ancient book leaves in a barely translatable tongue that would tell the names and needs of any visitor who happened to come to the temple -- even up to the present day. It seems the Book had presented a spontaneous reading one day, recommending that a little-known saint from the village of Herakhan be called to perform a Vedic fire ritual.
And when Babaji arrived, the Englishman said, the prophets found his name in the book and read the following: "Shiva has returned to us, manifest in three forms: Shiva alone, in that sadhu there," the priests indicated a white-bearded holy man watching them from the corner. "And Shiva and Shakti together in Satya Sai Baba, and as Nataraj, the dancing Shiva of destruction, in the form of this young guru, Herakhan Baba."
The more I saw of his playfulness and underlying compassion, the more I speculated about this strange prediction and the whole Shiva issue. I mentally asked Babaji to resolve this puzzle, and a few nights later had a vivid dream about it. I dreamed I saw a candle flame burning in a heart, and knew it represented love and devotion. The candle grew into a hotter, brighter flame, and I could see that it burned and purified all that was not love. Any dark, low things that did not match the love-intensity of this flame were consumed and destroyed by it, but only, it seemed, to make way for the good and the whole that would take its place.
I then felt I understood that the "destructive" Shiva aspect of God was actually an extremely intense vibration of love that passed unharmed through objects of a similar love nature but, also, destroyed immediately all that was of a low vibration -- greed, cruelty or selfishness, for instance. And it seemed that Babaji's designation of 'Om Namah Shivaya' as a protective mantra now made sense. If the Vedantic conception about mantras was correct and repeating this mantra evoked the Shiva aspect of God in a person, then he would naturally remain unharmed when the Shiva-energy passed through him, since that very energy would already be present within.
Radio Interview from 2000
This Radio Interview was discovered online in a simple website offered by Pathways Radio, in 2000. My friend, Ron, sent it to me and said, “Wow, doesn’t this sound like the emails?” It sure did to me!!! The wording and phrasing are pretty much identical.
I wrote to the folks at Pathways Radio, asking how and where and when they got the interview with Babaji. Here is their reply:
"Dear Ms. Devivo:
Babaji: Hello Bob. Om Namah Shivai.
Dr. Bob: Is that you Babaji?
Babaji: Yes. I have come forth to give a message about the great changes and how to live in the higher path and come through these changes by living in Truth,Simplicity and Love and by serving others and connecting to God.
Dr. Bob: What was that expression you used?
Babaji: It is the mantra that I have come to share with all who are open to receive it. It can calm a disturbed mind and heal a sick body. It can enable you to connect with your higher self and God.
Dr. Bob: What does it mean or translate to?
Babaji: It simply means "I bow to the divine within", or for a western mind, "Thy will be done".
Dr. Bob: And how do you use this mantra.?
Babaji: Repeat the mantra on a daily basis when at work or during meditation.Japa is repeating the mantra while passing a mala bead or what you call a rosary bead through your fingers each time you say the mantra.There are 108 beads in a mala. But you don't have to do this.You can simply repeat it silently.
Dr. Bob: For those reading the transcript how do you pronounce it?
Babaji: It is pronounced like this" Ooommm Na-ma She-veye"
Dr. Bob: What are these great changes you are speaking of?
Babaji: The great changes or Great Revolution has started.It will be both wondrous and destructive. Most of mankind will be destroyed as Nature balances out the great injustices that mankind has caused against the environment and each other. There are a few out there who will be open to this message and will repeat the mantra, live in Truth, Simplicity and Love and serve others. They will live on the higher path,attach themselves to God. They will be brave and always walk on. There will be many mountains to cross,but they will not stop until the goal is reached. They will be strong, and will never feel disheartened.These will survive the Great Revolution.
Dr. Bob: What does your message have to do with change?
Babaji: Change is nothing new. It is a Law of nature. What is born must die and what dies must be born. The human being is enslaved to his lower path. The higher self must be developed, so that the lower self is destroyed and the heart is transformed.
Dr. Bob: The first part of your message is living in Truth. What do you mean by that?
Babaji: Man is enslaved by his lower self. This causes him to desire things,power and acquire as much as possible. In order to do this man must lie, con and scheme. In your culture things are rarely sold truthfully.
Dr. Bob: Yes,I know what you mean. The other day I went shopping for a computer from an ad which listed the system and the price.When I got to the store I found out that it would cost 300 more dollars to get the proper operating system installed and the right parts to complete the system. When I went to lease a compact car for 259 dollars I found out about the true cost which included acquisition fees,delivery fees.prep fees,excess mileage fees,excess wear and tear fees, taxes, title,license,extra insurance,maintenance fees,loan fees, etc. which brought the true cost up to 500 dollars a month not including gas! There are always these extra costs that are never mentioned.Same thing with a house.When you add everything up you pay about three times the actual price.But your brain is saying "yeah, its only 110 thousand" or "wow, this car is only 259 dollars a month".
Babaji: Yes, business is filled with half truth, cons and downright lies.All part of man's lower nature and his desire to acquire things.
Dr. Bob: I guess the idea of lowballing the price is to get you in for the bait and switch or selling you something you don't really need so the profit is higher. I guess which is why people hate going to the dealer to buy a car.
Babaji: And living in Truth is not limited to business.It really involves our relationships.How many times have you told a lie to a loved one?
Dr. Bob: In the past, guilty as charged. But on the higher path I find that there is no need for that.
Babaji: If we lived in truth most problems of this world would disappear.
Dr. Bob: So the first part of your message is to be truthful. Truthful about your service, business, and about your relationships.
Babaji: It is important that the words coming out of your mouth are truthful.That you should not engage in idle chatter or gossip.IT is better to be silent than to utter lies that will surely come back and haunt you. As it is written in your western religion, "The truth shall set you free."
And also there is truth in our relationships when we are on the higher path.We are honest with our loved ones. We don't treat people like expendable throw away things. We don't acquire people like we acquire things. If you live in truth then much of the problems of this world would cease to exist. We would not go to war in the name of one God against another God when we really want to acquire the things of the enemy. And this leads to the second part of my message...Simplicity
Dr. Bob: Simplicity?
Babaji: YES. Our desire for things a created a great imbalance and toll on this world's environment. This acquisition has led to the few owning and controling most of the wealth. And as this imbalance becomes more distorted, the odds of a great war and the destructive backlash of the evironment causing horrible diseases becomes more likely. But if we were on the high path, we would live in simplicity. How many homes does one need to live in. ow many clothes do we need to dress with. Things,things and more things. Soon they own us.We worry about these things.We steal them.Go to war overthem.Spend our time guarding and maintaining them.We become bored with things,discard them,get new things and repeat the cycle over and over. But we are still lonely, unfulfilled, agitated.
Dr. Bob: So on the higher path one would desire few things and live simply yet still be comfortable.
Babaji: Yes. The Buddha once said that if you cannot in a moments notice leave your home and all your things you could never be enlightened.
Dr. Bob: That's because we become attached to all of our stuff so we can't free the mind to explore the higher pathways.
Babaji: Exactly.On the high path one becomes attached to nothing, but there is a connection, a spiritual connection to the higher self, that part of you, the real you, the one who observes the Universe, the one connected to the Creator.Now, this doesn't mean that you should give up your things.It means that things are things.And on the higher path, one is not attached to things, but merely observes.
Dr. Bob: Observes?
Babaji: Yes, the true higher self is an observer who watches without judgement, without thought.
Dr. Bob: Without judgement or thought we can't be attached to things or conditioned by them.
Babaji: Yes. Just observation without desire. And without desire one can live in simplicity.
Dr. Bob: So if mankind lived in simplicity the environment would stay in balance, there would be enough food and things for everyone.And there would be no cause for war, hunger, or poverty. But this sounds like a fantasy.Civilization has been around for 15-20 thousand years and nothing has changed.Its only getting worse.
Babaji: Yes, but your world is coming into a period of great destructive change.And if simplicity is not adapted, then nature will do it the hard way by destroying much of humanity.
Dr. Bob: And how will that happen?
Babaji: There will be great changes upon your world.Much of humanity will be destroyed by disease unleashed from the hidden recesses of the land.Others will face the great fire from within.
Dr. Bob: What kind of diseases?
Babaji: Microbes, such as viruses that normally live in isolated areas will be unleashed as the environment becomes used up.
Dr. Bob: What about economic activity?
Babaji: This too is in a severe state of imbalance.The few who have most of the wealth are now enslaving the poor more than at any other time in history.
Dr. Bob: What do you mean.There is no slavery.
Babaji: When a large corporation pays a worker 10 cents an hour housing them in a barbed wired compund that you would never live in and sells their finished product for many many times its cost to you and then the few owners of the corporation keep the excess profit while the worker is underpaid and you overpay. This is enslavement that comes from greed.
Dr. Bob: How will this effect us?
Babaji: This form of greed will lead to war. The masses will rise up with sticks and stones and will overpower the largest armies.And the consumers, when they find out of this will support the downtrodden... but let us get to the last part of my message
Dr. Bob: And that is...
Babaji: Love. Truth,Simplicity,and Love. And Love on the higher path is unconditional. It is like the higher self who observes without thought,without desire,without judgement.And love of the Creator. Repeat Om Namah Shivay and you will connect to your higher self which is God.
Dr. Bob: So Babaji, the higher pathway consists of living in Truth,Simplicity,and Love.Is that correct?
Babaji: It is how we are to live in this body on this world. There is also meditation which is the chanting of the mantra Om Nama Shivay.
Dr. Bob: Once more for those who are reading the transcript how is the mantra pronounced?
Babaji: Like this: Ommmm Nahh-ma She-veye
Dr. Bob: Ok.Now Babaji. How long have you been around?
Babaji: I am here from the beginning of time.
Dr. Bob: And where are you?
Babaji: I will at times create a body to reside in. At other times I will be here to guide you.Just say my name and I will hear you.
Dr. Bob: Are you in a body now?
Babaji: No, but this is not important. What is important is my message of Truth,Simplicity, and Love and that I am here if you need me.Strive to live on the higher path. Make it your purpose to serve others. That is why you are here on this world. That is the purpose of being in a body....to serve.It is not to make money,acquire things,power,knowledge....it is to serve. No matter what your capacity, no matter what the task or resource.... you're purpose here, to be a human being, is to be in service, and your path of living is in truth,simplicity and love.
Dr. Bob: What about the great dark changes that you speak of. Can we stop them, head them off, and save humanity?
Babaji: These changes, or what I call the Great Revolution are already set into motion. They ARE coming and are at the early stages of process. You are noticing the changes in climate, more extreme conditions in temperature,larger more powerful storms,more occurrences of volcanic and earthquake activity and more extremes in the economies. You notice the changes in the perception of time. Everything appears to be speeding up.
You see your relationships changing rapidly. You are agitated. You move and change jobs often. You need more and more, faster and faster multiple sensory input. Now these changes are here and will rapidly increase and there will be much destruction. This cannot be changed through technology. It is a bit too late. But there are some who will have an open mind. And to those who follow my message, you will survive this and you will go on to serve and create the wonderful changes that I also speak of.
Dr. Bob: And what can be wonderful after all of this destructive change you are predicting?
Babaji: After the Great Revolution, this world will enter a golden age. The environment will be in balance and mankind will have changed its ways by living on the higher path. There will be tremendous technology. It will take you to the stars in this galaxy and beyond to other galaxies. You will become a great race creating life throughout the universe.And you will meet up with sentient beings from other dimensions of space-time when your science breaks through the quantum backdrop, the ground of being from which everything comes, the HOLOFIELD.
Dr. Bob: Wow. And where does this all lead.
Babaji: You are the eyes and ears of the Universe.You are the observers of creation and its myriad things. And eventually...this leads you back to your real self...the Creator...when you will start another universe....over and over in the dance of the creator.....Remember,by just calling my name I will hear you.If you are open I will guide you...repeat my mantra...live in truth, simplicity and love...and remember your purpose in this body on this world is to serve...(silence)
Dr. Bob: Babaji. Are you still here? ..........I guess not.Well this certainly has been interesting and I hope that you will appear again sometime soon. Well, until next time my friends, please join us for another edition of Pathways, where we will explore the frontiers of mind, body and spirit. Until then...be well.
Thoughts from Marge DeVivo:
I was so blown away by this interview that I have to say I walked around in a daze for a few days (again!) and contemplated what this could mean. I also sent this to Babaji:
This sure sounds like you. What is the deal?
It does sound like me.
I was sending this to Ron, who found this whole thing, and I hit the wrong button and sent it to the list! That is when I started to think "Man, this is a leela and a half! Babaji wants everyone to read this..."but to be sure I didn't need to retract something, I wrote to Babaji, asking if I had messed up something, AND what do about it!!
Wonder but worry not.
Believe me, I was WONDERING!!!
Then I continued to ask more directly if it was really Babaji behind this interview, or what was going on here. He didn't answer for awhile, but I think I asked about it 2 or 3 more times. What did I have to lose by being persistent about this? I sent this at the end of another email to Babaji:
"... p.s. I don't care if it was "you" or not you at the radio interview. It sure is the same set of information, as far as I can tell. Many are saying that these emails are from an American devotee, and if so, I would like to meet this devotee and shake his hand and congratulate him on his internalization of the teachings, his wisdom, his clarity, his unconditional love and compassion. It is a blessing."
I was in that body.I knew the name of my website years BEFORE YOU decided upon the name.Understand? I speak to many Hearts in many ways. You will learn of this. Many will say this and many will say that about Babaji. How can they know anything about no body? How can they know anything about no thing?
If the mind tries to put Babaji in one place,in one body,in one culture,in one time,in one form... how can that mind understand how to use the Teachings for spiritual growth? Shall we live in the dead past or shall we move forward through the eternal now. Babaji"
Now, what could I possibly add to that?
OM Namah Shivaya
Love and Blessings,
Marge | firstname.lastname@example.org
Teachings in PDF | Glossary | Whois Babaji? | Interview with Babaji
Our Guestbook | Calendar of Events | Inspiration Corner | Email Lists | Peace / Healing Meditation | Healing Page | Sharing Photos | Prayer Requests | Personal Stories
Prayer and Ritual:
Spiritual Practices in PDF | Prayers in PDF | Bhajans in PDF | Navaratri 2006 | Pujari Training Information
Babaji.net Online Shop: